It is about time this happened. These appraisal managment companies have muscled the independent appraiser into taking much lower fees while not disclosing these added costs on the settlement sheet by hiding them in the appraisal fee. The appraisal fee does not change on the settlement sheet and goes unknown. The order to the appraiser on most of them strictly states "do not discuss fess with the borrower".

One must ask ones self what kind of proffesional appraiser is taking on the added work that Fannie and Freddie have imposed the last few years and taking a 30 to 60 percent fee reduction on top of that. What kind of quality do you think these management companies are getting. The majority of these AMC's are or had been started/owned by the lenders. Is that really a 3rd party?

It is not only Countrywide that has profited mightily from this scheme. Wells Fargo has RELS doing their dirty work with the same MO.

Hopefully this is the first crack in the HVCC egg. If countrywide admits guilt (especially to racketeering) then then entire AMC model is nothing short of being racketeering.

Now that the public has finally initiated a class action lawsuit, it would be nice to see this turn into a 3 pronged attack. Appraisers and Mortgage brokers can make the same claim regarding damages.

LandSafe is a third party.....sort of. If an AMC is a wholly owned subsidiary of a bank, then they are subject to federal law and excluded from many state laws. Because of this exemption, many state attorney generals office have no direct jurisdiction over the AMC. This creates a problem. State's want to do something but are precluded. The Fed's can do something but the FTC, OTS, OCC ignore the issue. So AMC's are in a gray world. Solution: private lawsuits to enforce federal law. Yea class action attorneys including Hagens Berman...

Landsafe has never been a third party... Countrywide has owned them from day one. Landsafe appraisers provided crappy appraisals which Countrywide pushed right on thru getting us into this whole mess... they deserve what is coming to them... the reason appraisal fees are as low as they are is becuase of Countrywide and Landsafe sleeping in the same bed together... other banks will soon have these lawsuits as well and it will be real funny to see how the HVCC comes into play... at the end of the day, the number of appraisers will be half or less than what they are now, because the trainees will no longer be working, and the licensed appraisers wont be appraising as of October 2009... the certifieds will be running the show and when they take a hiatus from these low fees, banks and AMCs will be begging for them to do work... or they can always go back to the AVMs and Zaio... oh wait they dont exist anymore.

I've been doing Landsafe appraisals for the last couple years - even though I've been extremely unhappy with a lot of their fees. However, I resent being called a crappy appraiser just because I do work for them. I've been in the business over 20 years and am not a substandard appraiser. Do I know lots of them? Sure! But I don't provide bad appraisals so I don't "deserve what's coming to them". I do appraisals to pay my bills but I don't compromise my integrity - never have, never will!

What we have found is the problem is regional specific. In SOME areas the business appears to be run reasonable, while in most others, the pressure for value and demanding inaccurate appraisals, over the top - ugly.
So Peg might be in a good region while others....

Appraisers remember one very valuable thing: Your appraisals must be based on the federal definition of "Market Value" So, if there were concessions in the purchase, did you properly subtract them from the sales price to reach your final conclusion?
If not..... there is a special class on "Market Value and How to Adjust for Concessions" you might consider taking.

Hmmm...quite a mess! I suspect that the Countrywide/Landsafe lawsuit dance will drag on for a long time. But it is heartening to think that at least one law firm thinks that there's a possibility of winning. However, aside from potential payouts to members of the class action suit, the possibility of appraisers seeing fees increased while working for AMCs as a result of this suit is pretty dim. All manner of new regulations and agreements, at local, State and Federal levels, appear (on the surface at least) to indicate that the days of blatent lender influence (AKA extortion) on the opinion of value is or will be a thing of the past. So, that out of the way, the fact is that AMCs can (and do) make the case that they charge the lenders the delta between their fees and what they pay to we appraisers for valuable service rendered (the independent management of the appraisal process, QA/QC, standards administration, etc.). It has ALWAYS been the case that an appraiser can refuse an assignment from anyone if he is not satisfied with the fee. THIS will not change, and gets to the heart of the issue... APPRAISERS have empowered the AMCs to lower and reduce fees that they offer to an appraiser for an assignment. Last time I checked, this free country of ours didn't have a problem with this kind of market independence.

Our firm only works with one AMC (and declines work from all others), which generates less than 9% of our business. Why? They pay 90% of our advertised market fee, and provide us access to lenders outside of our area that we'd have a very difficult time marketing to. And now, with the HVCC etc., this type of marketing itself is seeming pointless in the future.

The answer to the low AMC fees seems to me to lie with the appraisers. Simply don't accept the assignment at a sub local market fee! Now, if y'all know how to convince even a simple majority of appraisers in your market area to agree to this, please let me know how you did it!!

Good luck to all members of the class suit, and remember...appraisers talking to other appraisers is a very good thing!!

I am a Certified Appraiser in California and when I first started appraising, I worked for all the management companies. I'll be the first to tell you, I was a crappy Appraiser! Not because I didn't know what I was doing because I just completed 3,000 hours of internship. But because these AMC's (Appraisal Management Companies) want the report back so quickly and because I had to do twice the volume to make a decent living, I never had the time to actually dig and create a decent appraisal. I stopped working for these companies because I felt I was better than that. I blame every Appraiser that has more than a couple years that didn't ween themselves off of the AMC for the power that the AMC's have now. If only new Appraisers used them to break into the business, it would have worked as a training system. But experienced Appraisers got greedy and continued to take these fees and conform to the ridiculous demands of the AMC's instead of marketing themselves to get full fee work.

I attended the Valuation 2008 conference in Las Vegas. On the last day the chief appraiser for LSI spoke. When questioned about low fees his most absurd response was that it cost us, the appraisers, a lot less to produce an appraisal that it did 10 years ago. While it is true that our immediate production cost have gone down; no more photo printing cost, etc., everything else has gone up, and sky high. And, by the way, if we do have a little extra profit because technology helps us out, well then I must ask, what right does LSI have to claim any of that profit?

Ross Acheson in Orange, CA is trying to form an Appraiser Association so we would have a voice. Ross is a stud old timer Appraiser that has seen all the angles of real estate. He is well respected and a really good guy. I wish he would serve as our spokesman! We need to band together more than ever! Either by union or association, we NEED solidarity! Everyone needs to fight this!

Lets add to the charge that they knowingly and willfully deceived the public by mandating that appraisers not include an invoice with a copy of the report.

It is good that there is a lot of dialog about this law suit. Don't rush to join AMC's before or after the HVCC rolls out. Fear is our biggest problem and joining AMC's perpetuates it.

This is an industry of "entrepreneurs" and to ensure future growth of your business keep this mindset. The more appraisers start that joining AMC's the less credibility and money we will make and more of us will drop out.

Remember, HVCC is a mandate to lenders and brokers, not appraisers. It will all iron out in the end, but the more appraisers panick and join AMC's the more control of our industry we'll lose.

Remember you didn't join this industry to be managed by a middle man, that's the beauty of this business. Don't let them manage your future. Say no and eventually they will pay you your fees or they will just go away.

I wonder how may appraiser's out there know that many of the appraisal management team are former managers of the WAMU Appraisal Department.

I really resent some of the comments, I do work for Landsafe and apparently alot of you are standing on the outside scraming about something you know nothing about. Peg is right about the appraisal fees are more than the average AMC's. The work I receive from Landsafe I get paid within $50 of my typical fees and my fees are set at the same as a majority of local appraisers.

As far as being a crappy appraiser, I am far from being a crappy appraiser. I know many appraisers in this area and most do not work for AMC's and I am constantly hearing from them that they are writing a rebuttal to a field review to get off someones blacklist or else they are responding to complaints to the state board. Most complain they got screwed on a field review when actually most of thrm have all these wonderful brokers sending them work and convincing them to forget this detail or bump the value. In my 7 years of appraising I have yet to have to rebuttal a review or appear in front of the state board, while most my local appraiser buddies are constantly doing rebuttals or appearing in front of the state board.

Does anyone here complaining realize EVERY appraisal that goes through Landsafes system is reviewed by a licensed appraiser before it goes back to Countrywide. Or the fact that if a loan officer calls you directly, Countrywide policy is to terminate the loan officer. Or that every refinance order is sent with no loan amount or any other type of value indicator, and no one will give you this information.

Landsafe takes independence to a whole new level, probably the best I have ever seen. Good Fees - Total Independence plus every order is reviewed to ensure each report is complete and accurate, so when I do miss something I have a second set of eyes insuring it is caught, saving me from potential problems down the road. That alone is worth the $50 that I lose on each order.

Landsafe assigns orders based on you appraiser rating, which is based on your quality of reports, corrections needed, status updates, inspection dates uploaded to system, meeting due dates and turntime. So the better the work you provide the more work you get.

I don't understand what everyones problem is, but if you don't like AMC's don't work for them, but don't throw stones at the ones who do. This is free enterprise is what our country is built on. For years banks and other financial institutions have had to bear the cost of maintaining appraiser list and reviews. So I guess most of you think they should continue to bear the cost of reviewing our work and maintaining appraiser list. Why? If every appraiser provided QUALITY appraisals, there would be no need for appraiser blacklists and all these required reviews that lenders have to order. We did it to ourselves, blame those crappy appraisers and when you do review work and there is serious USPAP violations, file a complaint with your State Board. Until we clean up our industry we will be at the mercy of others that have to monitor our actions.

There is so many of you throwing stones without the facts and so many more throwing stones when your guilty of helping us get to this point. Just because you say you refuse to take reduced fees, doesn't mean you a GOOD appraiser. Especially those of you who are screaming about losing your client relationships that you worked SO HARD to develop. Let's be truthful about those client relationships, the only way to keep a majority of those clients happy are by HITTING the numbers and OVERLOOKING that deferred maintenance. Because honestly brokers are looking to make money and a majority will only use appraisers who help them get the job done, no matter what it takes. There are some brokers that want the truth but not many and then everyone says AMC's want quick turntimes which are impossible to provide quality appraisals, most AMC's give 7 days to get a full URAR done. Every broker I have worked for normally expects thier reports back within 3-4 days.

It's a toss up both have thier flaws and corruption is everywhere in our field. But until good appraisers stand up against all these bad appraiser and start reporting them and getting them tossed out of our field, then we have no right to complain. Besides, why complain I do 90% AMC work and I make one heck of a living. I am making more than double than I was as a Network Engineer, with a college degree and 7 certifications. I get to control my own schedule, I take 3 or 4 vacations a year, I hunt 40-50 times a year, I get to write off all the stuff I used to pay for anyway, and I GOOF OFF more than anyone I know.

Come on people where else can you make $75,000 a year or more and control your own schedule and be your own boss.

Well, RP, it looks like Landsafe will be calling you to become their spokesperson. It sounds like you're happy, but I don't believe so many appraisers would be reporting disgust with AMC's if it weren't true. I have heard there are way too many AMC's offering to pay the appraiser less than $200 for a full appraisal, and they are asking for it back in 24 hrs. In fact, one AMC requires the appraisal to be back by 1:00 the next day. The problem definitely lies with the appraiser; if they choose to do AMC work, for whatever the fee is, they must still comply with USPAP because I can't find a clause in USPAP that says "no worries, give the client what they pay for, so if the fee is 50% of the typical fee, then they get half the research." I believe the days are gone when an appraisal can be turned around in 24 hrs or less - which seems to be the average expectation of the AMC.

I have been an appraiser for over twenty years and have seen this coming. There was way too much ordering communication going on creating ten years of "made to order" appraisals and ten years of folks who became appraisers with no idea on how to appraise. I hear of appraisers asking home owners "what they think their house is worth" or wondering "where to start" on too basic of assignments creating no current consumer confidence at all.

We used to be the "holy ones". Now, we're way too closely attached to the brokers and the mortgage crisis that has swamped front pages of newprint far and wide.

My experience with the AMC I do work for has been positive. As the large appraisal firms push everyone into their home offices, it's nice to have someone to call for advise or direction on assignments. The work I get is close to home as they find the closest appraiser for the order. When things got slow the brokers and banks won't consider paying appraisal bill as they pay their rent, lights and phone first. I am ALWAYS paid on time and quickly. When I realized that even at higher fees I wasn't making anything due to always trying to get paid, I went a different direction.

I am an just an appraiser,... not in collections, office politics, law and not into being a great entrepreneur. I make a comfortable living and enjoy what I do.

RP seems to be out numbered.He does sound like a spokesperson. I have been appraising for 10 years. The AMC model has to much power over the "Independent Appraiser". If the AMC model is a service to the lender to make their job easier, why are we, the appraiser, paying for it.Think about that for a minute. How did it evolve that we are paying for a service that benefits the lender. Does anyone else see something wrong with that.I have tried to ask for a fee adjustment from AMC's and 90%(+) of the time the answer is NO. We the appraisers do the work, maintain the license, continuing education, office expences etc. Without willing appraisers to do the work, what will they do.They are nothing without us.Take a small step if you can't just say no. Start saying NO to the real low ballers every now and then.You know who they are. Appraisers need to unite. Supply and Demand works. They will have to change.Sometimes change hurts at first. But in the end they need US.

With increased liability, increased reporting requirements, with high operating costs, i.e. E&O, automobile gas, annual fees for professional organizations, annual continuing education fees, monthly and annual fees for data sources, office supplies etc. to name a few, why on earth would an appraiser accept a lower fee. A colleague of mine called me the other day and said he received 25 appraisal orders from an AMC. I do a limited amount of work for this same company, am in the same area, and have not received a single order. Why? Because his fee is $95 for a full 1004. How on earth are 25 quality reports completed within the unrealistic turn around time frame? Does he sleep anymore or have time to eat? As much as I love what I do, and feel I am a quality appraiser, I am one of those appraisers who is refusing to work for less than standard fees. My clients realize my worth - yes, I am slower than I have been in years, but I am in this business for the duration, and am looking forward to all the substandard appraisers falling off the radar. They will. It's just a matter of time. I have been saying for years that all those appraisers who are accepting rediculous fees are shooting themselves in the foot. In the end, quanity not quality prevails and the industry as a whole suffers. Wake up appraisers!

Good for you Peg. I also am a very ethical and diligent certified appraiser who does work for Landsafe. Although I am not happy with the cut fees they have NEVER attempted to push value,pay within 30 days and have provided what I consider reliable reviews of my work.
The only problem, outside of the lower fees, that I have had is the current setup with Appriasalport. The fact that they pay in a timely manner saves me money, so sometimes excepting a lower fee counters waiting 3 months to be paid.
I also agree that the shopping for low fees does lead to poor quality work and that needs to be addressed, but Landsafe is not 100% bad.